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	<title>Comments on: TWoN Chapter 8</title>
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		<title>By: Damien R. S.</title>
		<link>http://dreamcafe.com/words/2009/05/12/twon-chapter-8/comment-page-1/#comment-5518</link>
		<dc:creator>Damien R. S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 05:28:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dreamcafe.com/words/?p=434#comment-5518</guid>
		<description>Nnng.  The point of the mathematics was to describe, at an abstract level, the underlying factors.  He didn&#039;t pull the math out of his ass; he made assumptions he thought matched reality, and the math was a precise description of those assumptions and their consequences.

The problem isn&#039;t in the act of modeling, but that his model has been wrong for the past few centuries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malthusian_catastrophe</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nnng.  The point of the mathematics was to describe, at an abstract level, the underlying factors.  He didn&#8217;t pull the math out of his ass; he made assumptions he thought matched reality, and the math was a precise description of those assumptions and their consequences.</p>
<p>The problem isn&#8217;t in the act of modeling, but that his model has been wrong for the past few centuries.<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malthusian_catastrophe">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malthusian_catastrophe</a></p>
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		<title>By: skzb</title>
		<link>http://dreamcafe.com/words/2009/05/12/twon-chapter-8/comment-page-1/#comment-5510</link>
		<dc:creator>skzb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 08:23:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The rate of expansion of a population is not determined by mathematics, but technological level and (related) social questions--such as the one you mention in your first paragraph.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The rate of expansion of a population is not determined by mathematics, but technological level and (related) social questions&#8211;such as the one you mention in your first paragraph.</p>
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		<title>By: JohnSherck</title>
		<link>http://dreamcafe.com/words/2009/05/12/twon-chapter-8/comment-page-1/#comment-5505</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnSherck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 May 2009 21:03:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Damien, I think you hit the nail on the head, both with regard to birth rates and immigration. It&#039;s also worth noting that an age when the ability to retire and be cared for in old age no longer depends largely on children, the pressure to have higher birthrates is also decreased. 

Steve, in regards to that same point, what point of Malthus were you specifically referring to? When connecting Malthus and population, I immediately think of the problems of population vs. carrying capacity (i.e. the population that can be supported on a particular area of land up to and including the world as a whole), on which I would suggest that he was not so much wrong as he couldn&#039;t know all the factors that would influence carrying capacity. But I&#039;m not sure that&#039;s what you&#039;re referring to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Damien, I think you hit the nail on the head, both with regard to birth rates and immigration. It&#8217;s also worth noting that an age when the ability to retire and be cared for in old age no longer depends largely on children, the pressure to have higher birthrates is also decreased. </p>
<p>Steve, in regards to that same point, what point of Malthus were you specifically referring to? When connecting Malthus and population, I immediately think of the problems of population vs. carrying capacity (i.e. the population that can be supported on a particular area of land up to and including the world as a whole), on which I would suggest that he was not so much wrong as he couldn&#8217;t know all the factors that would influence carrying capacity. But I&#8217;m not sure that&#8217;s what you&#8217;re referring to.</p>
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		<title>By: skzb</title>
		<link>http://dreamcafe.com/words/2009/05/12/twon-chapter-8/comment-page-1/#comment-5491</link>
		<dc:creator>skzb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 22:48:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dreamcafe.com/words/?p=434#comment-5491</guid>
		<description>Mighty Blue and Seth: Very good points that I hadn&#039;t considered; thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mighty Blue and Seth: Very good points that I hadn&#8217;t considered; thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth</title>
		<link>http://dreamcafe.com/words/2009/05/12/twon-chapter-8/comment-page-1/#comment-5490</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 20:45:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I would argue that individual investment bankers were acting in their long-term interests; they had a choice between doing as they did, and taking home, say, $10 million in a few years, then nothing; or acting more safely, and taking home less than that in their entire careers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would argue that individual investment bankers were acting in their long-term interests; they had a choice between doing as they did, and taking home, say, $10 million in a few years, then nothing; or acting more safely, and taking home less than that in their entire careers.</p>
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		<title>By: MightyBlue</title>
		<link>http://dreamcafe.com/words/2009/05/12/twon-chapter-8/comment-page-1/#comment-5489</link>
		<dc:creator>MightyBlue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 20:31:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dreamcafe.com/words/?p=434#comment-5489</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;&quot;An investment banker in the last few years who acted “in his own long-term interests” was in danger of losing his market share, and thus his economic life, against competitors who were concentrating on short-term interests.&quot;&lt;/em&gt;

Investment bankers, and the entire financial management class &lt;em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;were&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt; acting in their long term interests in the last few years.  As a class, that is. These interests being served by creating the illusion of profit and skimming, risk free, a guaranteed percentage from that illusion.  They did not care at all about the firms and stockholders they worked for.  Rather they worked in a different time frame (time being another factor that becomes increasingly malleable in production and profit activities after Smith&#039;s era) with different horizons than that of the firms which they were &quot;managing&quot;. When the crash came, they scooted out the back door with their &quot;long term interests&quot; well served and provided for, leaving everyone else holding the proverbial bag.

But anyway, thanks Steve for doing this. It&#039;s quite a treat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>&#8220;An investment banker in the last few years who acted “in his own long-term interests” was in danger of losing his market share, and thus his economic life, against competitors who were concentrating on short-term interests.&#8221;</em></p>
<p>Investment bankers, and the entire financial management class <em><strong>were</strong></em> acting in their long term interests in the last few years.  As a class, that is. These interests being served by creating the illusion of profit and skimming, risk free, a guaranteed percentage from that illusion.  They did not care at all about the firms and stockholders they worked for.  Rather they worked in a different time frame (time being another factor that becomes increasingly malleable in production and profit activities after Smith&#8217;s era) with different horizons than that of the firms which they were &#8220;managing&#8221;. When the crash came, they scooted out the back door with their &#8220;long term interests&#8221; well served and provided for, leaving everyone else holding the proverbial bag.</p>
<p>But anyway, thanks Steve for doing this. It&#8217;s quite a treat.</p>
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		<title>By: Damien R. S.</title>
		<link>http://dreamcafe.com/words/2009/05/12/twon-chapter-8/comment-page-1/#comment-5488</link>
		<dc:creator>Damien R. S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 19:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dreamcafe.com/words/?p=434#comment-5488</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;“The most decisive mark of the prosperity of any country is the increase of the number of its inhabitants.”  Interest.  Is this true?&lt;/i&gt;

Probably not so much in the era of birth control and border control, but I can imagine what he might have been thinkng of: high prosperity can mean more food production, which means more people, or goods which import more food, ditto, or high wages which attract immigrants.

Nowadays, on a global scale population increase via births doesn&#039;t correspond with prosperity -- though it might with prosperity, in some senses, in the history of a region -- but economic prosperity sure corresponds well with attractiveness to immigrants.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>“The most decisive mark of the prosperity of any country is the increase of the number of its inhabitants.”  Interest.  Is this true?</i></p>
<p>Probably not so much in the era of birth control and border control, but I can imagine what he might have been thinkng of: high prosperity can mean more food production, which means more people, or goods which import more food, ditto, or high wages which attract immigrants.</p>
<p>Nowadays, on a global scale population increase via births doesn&#8217;t correspond with prosperity &#8212; though it might with prosperity, in some senses, in the history of a region &#8212; but economic prosperity sure corresponds well with attractiveness to immigrants.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Timonin</title>
		<link>http://dreamcafe.com/words/2009/05/12/twon-chapter-8/comment-page-1/#comment-5485</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Timonin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 11:06:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dreamcafe.com/words/?p=434#comment-5485</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m interested in seeing how Smith will influence the next Vlad novel...

re: arguments for slavery (in the context of the US)  - you are absolutely correct that it was argued that slave owners had to keep slaves in a certain level of comfort. However, it was argued expressly in contrast to the sort of industrial/wage labor that Smith is discussing here. IE, slave apologists contended that, since an industrial laborer could always be easily and cheaply replaced, slaves were actually better cared for. Moreover, since slaves were highly limited in their ability to protest their conditions (not that they would want to), Southern society was more stable than Northern society, where the mistreated laborers could vote. These arguments - that slavery was a better - that is, more humane - way of extracting labor from laborers, and that it also precluded protest by the laborers, were often made concurrently.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m interested in seeing how Smith will influence the next Vlad novel&#8230;</p>
<p>re: arguments for slavery (in the context of the US)  &#8211; you are absolutely correct that it was argued that slave owners had to keep slaves in a certain level of comfort. However, it was argued expressly in contrast to the sort of industrial/wage labor that Smith is discussing here. IE, slave apologists contended that, since an industrial laborer could always be easily and cheaply replaced, slaves were actually better cared for. Moreover, since slaves were highly limited in their ability to protest their conditions (not that they would want to), Southern society was more stable than Northern society, where the mistreated laborers could vote. These arguments &#8211; that slavery was a better &#8211; that is, more humane &#8211; way of extracting labor from laborers, and that it also precluded protest by the laborers, were often made concurrently.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Fletcher</title>
		<link>http://dreamcafe.com/words/2009/05/12/twon-chapter-8/comment-page-1/#comment-5480</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Fletcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 04:01:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dreamcafe.com/words/?p=434#comment-5480</guid>
		<description>Thanks for this whole series. I do like seeing your commentary, and it means I will likely get the book and read it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for this whole series. I do like seeing your commentary, and it means I will likely get the book and read it.</p>
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		<title>By: will shetterly</title>
		<link>http://dreamcafe.com/words/2009/05/12/twon-chapter-8/comment-page-1/#comment-5478</link>
		<dc:creator>will shetterly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 01:49:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Nothing to add, but I&#039;m very glad you&#039;re doing this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nothing to add, but I&#8217;m very glad you&#8217;re doing this.</p>
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