<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: On &#8220;message,&#8221; &#8220;theme,&#8221; and Stuff Like That</title>
	<atom:link href="http://dreamcafe.com/words/2008/03/23/on-message-theme-and-stuff-like-that/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://dreamcafe.com/words/2008/03/23/on-message-theme-and-stuff-like-that/</link>
	<description>The Dream Caf&#233; Weblog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 17 May 2012 05:12:25 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://dreamcafe.com/words/2008/03/23/on-message-theme-and-stuff-like-that/comment-page-1/#comment-1641</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 13:46:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dreamcafe.com/words/2008/03/23/on-message-theme-and-stuff-like-that/#comment-1641</guid>
		<description>I think the difference is in intent. &quot;Theme&quot; is something the author is working out for himself, an idea he&#039;s playing with. &quot;Message&quot; is something the author is trying to convince the reader of. The first contributes constructively to storytelling, but the second usually distracts from the story. And it&#039;s irritating. And &quot;sending a message&quot; is one of the most heinous catch-phrase clichés of our time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the difference is in intent. &#8220;Theme&#8221; is something the author is working out for himself, an idea he&#8217;s playing with. &#8220;Message&#8221; is something the author is trying to convince the reader of. The first contributes constructively to storytelling, but the second usually distracts from the story. And it&#8217;s irritating. And &#8220;sending a message&#8221; is one of the most heinous catch-phrase clichés of our time.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Hlamalani</title>
		<link>http://dreamcafe.com/words/2008/03/23/on-message-theme-and-stuff-like-that/comment-page-1/#comment-1640</link>
		<dc:creator>Hlamalani</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 12:31:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dreamcafe.com/words/2008/03/23/on-message-theme-and-stuff-like-that/#comment-1640</guid>
		<description>I would like to know the difference between the theme and the message of a story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would like to know the difference between the theme and the message of a story.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Miramon</title>
		<link>http://dreamcafe.com/words/2008/03/23/on-message-theme-and-stuff-like-that/comment-page-1/#comment-1201</link>
		<dc:creator>Miramon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 05:22:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dreamcafe.com/words/2008/03/23/on-message-theme-and-stuff-like-that/#comment-1201</guid>
		<description>skzb@26: &quot;How can you write fiction–especially speculative fiction–and yet sneer at intellectualism?&quot;

Here&#039;s a way: Read a bad issue of the New York Review of Science Fiction. That can turn you off intellectualism big time :)

Seriously, though, the NYRSF has had some fine articles, but I recall that sometimes it seemed to get lost in a haze of aesthetic and critical theory, perhaps the only academic areas more obtuse to the outsider than sociology.

I stopped reading it after a while because the brows had gotten way too high over there for my taste, and as a self-confessed user of the word &quot;etiolated&quot;, those are some pretty high brows. But I admit I haven&#039;t looked at that magazine in years, so perhaps it has improved. (Actually, now I&#039;m interested; I&#039;ll look at it again next time I&#039;m in a SF bookstore.)

As an aside, by the way, since it comes to mind due to the similar title, despite its almost complete disinclination to deal with genre fiction, the New York Review of Books is still a great magazine, a good mix of random art, art history, literature, and political articles only some of which are actual book reviews.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>skzb@26: &#8220;How can you write fiction–especially speculative fiction–and yet sneer at intellectualism?&#8221;</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a way: Read a bad issue of the New York Review of Science Fiction. That can turn you off intellectualism big time :)</p>
<p>Seriously, though, the NYRSF has had some fine articles, but I recall that sometimes it seemed to get lost in a haze of aesthetic and critical theory, perhaps the only academic areas more obtuse to the outsider than sociology.</p>
<p>I stopped reading it after a while because the brows had gotten way too high over there for my taste, and as a self-confessed user of the word &#8220;etiolated&#8221;, those are some pretty high brows. But I admit I haven&#8217;t looked at that magazine in years, so perhaps it has improved. (Actually, now I&#8217;m interested; I&#8217;ll look at it again next time I&#8217;m in a SF bookstore.)</p>
<p>As an aside, by the way, since it comes to mind due to the similar title, despite its almost complete disinclination to deal with genre fiction, the New York Review of Books is still a great magazine, a good mix of random art, art history, literature, and political articles only some of which are actual book reviews.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: skzb</title>
		<link>http://dreamcafe.com/words/2008/03/23/on-message-theme-and-stuff-like-that/comment-page-1/#comment-1200</link>
		<dc:creator>skzb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 19:38:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dreamcafe.com/words/2008/03/23/on-message-theme-and-stuff-like-that/#comment-1200</guid>
		<description>Apophenia @ 25: &quot;There seems to be a strong current of anti-intellectualism in the fantasy &amp; science-fiction genres&quot; 

Damn skippy there is.  And it makes me nuts.  How can you write fiction--especially speculative fiction--and yet sneer at intellectualism?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apophenia @ 25: &#8220;There seems to be a strong current of anti-intellectualism in the fantasy &#038; science-fiction genres&#8221; </p>
<p>Damn skippy there is.  And it makes me nuts.  How can you write fiction&#8211;especially speculative fiction&#8211;and yet sneer at intellectualism?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Apophenia</title>
		<link>http://dreamcafe.com/words/2008/03/23/on-message-theme-and-stuff-like-that/comment-page-1/#comment-1198</link>
		<dc:creator>Apophenia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:58:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dreamcafe.com/words/2008/03/23/on-message-theme-and-stuff-like-that/#comment-1198</guid>
		<description>There seems to be a strong current of anti-intellectualism in the fantasy &amp; science-fiction genres, a notion that the &quot;story&quot; (or the &quot;science&quot;) is all that matters -- that the literary tools of theme, structure (and even style) are, at best, useless. I find this deeply disturbing. Why read a story that&#039;s completely self-contained and has nothing to say about the world when you could be reading something that&#039;s actually enriching or relevant or interesting? (warning: may contain bias.)

Of course, *using* literary tools is by no means a guarantee of having something to say; many comments have pointed this out. My favourite example of an author failing at what JP@21 calls &quot;choate&quot; theme  is the perennial high-school assignment,  Shirley Jackson&#039;s &quot;The Lottery&quot;; it sets up an entire self-contained universe in which people are barbaric, in order to show that people are barbaric. Not only is the theme heavy-handed, but it leaves no space for disagreement. &quot;This is the way it is,&quot; it instructs the readers. Such bullshit.

I&#039;ve always found Ursula LeGuin&#039;s &quot;The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas&quot; to be the perfect counterexample. It isn&#039;t a story, really; has no plot, no characters, no science, even. But it&#039;s utterly brilliant, and deeply poignant. Unlike Jackson, who bludgeons her theme through shock&amp;awe, LeGuin simply hypothesizes about a world -- deliberately shaping it without ever leaving  the realm of rhetoric -- and then implies her thematic question, never quite saying it out loud.

I don&#039;t mean to create an opposition between &quot;choate&quot; and &quot;inchoate&quot;; I agree with JP@21 that the former often fail but can be nailed in certain cases. Rather, I think it&#039;s important to point out that stories don&#039;t even need &quot;story&quot;, really, but, in order to sustain interest, theme is pretty crucial.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There seems to be a strong current of anti-intellectualism in the fantasy &amp; science-fiction genres, a notion that the &#8220;story&#8221; (or the &#8220;science&#8221;) is all that matters &#8212; that the literary tools of theme, structure (and even style) are, at best, useless. I find this deeply disturbing. Why read a story that&#8217;s completely self-contained and has nothing to say about the world when you could be reading something that&#8217;s actually enriching or relevant or interesting? (warning: may contain bias.)</p>
<p>Of course, *using* literary tools is by no means a guarantee of having something to say; many comments have pointed this out. My favourite example of an author failing at what JP@21 calls &#8220;choate&#8221; theme  is the perennial high-school assignment,  Shirley Jackson&#8217;s &#8220;The Lottery&#8221;; it sets up an entire self-contained universe in which people are barbaric, in order to show that people are barbaric. Not only is the theme heavy-handed, but it leaves no space for disagreement. &#8220;This is the way it is,&#8221; it instructs the readers. Such bullshit.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve always found Ursula LeGuin&#8217;s &#8220;The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas&#8221; to be the perfect counterexample. It isn&#8217;t a story, really; has no plot, no characters, no science, even. But it&#8217;s utterly brilliant, and deeply poignant. Unlike Jackson, who bludgeons her theme through shock&amp;awe, LeGuin simply hypothesizes about a world &#8212; deliberately shaping it without ever leaving  the realm of rhetoric &#8212; and then implies her thematic question, never quite saying it out loud.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t mean to create an opposition between &#8220;choate&#8221; and &#8220;inchoate&#8221;; I agree with JP@21 that the former often fail but can be nailed in certain cases. Rather, I think it&#8217;s important to point out that stories don&#8217;t even need &#8220;story&#8221;, really, but, in order to sustain interest, theme is pretty crucial.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: skzb</title>
		<link>http://dreamcafe.com/words/2008/03/23/on-message-theme-and-stuff-like-that/comment-page-1/#comment-1084</link>
		<dc:creator>skzb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 11:54:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dreamcafe.com/words/2008/03/23/on-message-theme-and-stuff-like-that/#comment-1084</guid>
		<description>Okay, Michael, now we&#039;re getting into the fun stuff.  How to express this?   Sometimes theme is there in back of your mind.  But other times, it&#039;s kind of...mmm...a game.  &quot;Hey, it would be fun to fool around with *this* sort of idea, and make it run through the story, and see what effect that has on how it plays out.&quot;  

That&#039;s part of what makes it fun, to write and read and talk about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, Michael, now we&#8217;re getting into the fun stuff.  How to express this?   Sometimes theme is there in back of your mind.  But other times, it&#8217;s kind of&#8230;mmm&#8230;a game.  &#8220;Hey, it would be fun to fool around with *this* sort of idea, and make it run through the story, and see what effect that has on how it plays out.&#8221;  </p>
<p>That&#8217;s part of what makes it fun, to write and read and talk about.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://dreamcafe.com/words/2008/03/23/on-message-theme-and-stuff-like-that/comment-page-1/#comment-1082</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 05:38:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dreamcafe.com/words/2008/03/23/on-message-theme-and-stuff-like-that/#comment-1082</guid>
		<description>I teach my students, of course, about Theme, and Tone, and Mood, and all that Critical stuff.  I do not, however, teach them that writers insert theme into their works, but that the themes are there because they were somewhere in the writer&#039;s mind when they wrote, or because they are in the mind of the reader when he/she reads it, or both.  

Hawthorne&#039;s &lt;I&gt;The Scarlet Letter&lt;/I&gt; is rife with ideas and statements on American culture and the taint of Puritanism on our collective souls.  That doesn&#039;t mean he consciously put the stuff in there, it just means he felt that way, so it&#039;s in his work.  

Sometimes I think we bring Theme to the novel, which is why two readers could read any given book and have differing opinions as to what the Theme of the work is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I teach my students, of course, about Theme, and Tone, and Mood, and all that Critical stuff.  I do not, however, teach them that writers insert theme into their works, but that the themes are there because they were somewhere in the writer&#8217;s mind when they wrote, or because they are in the mind of the reader when he/she reads it, or both.  </p>
<p>Hawthorne&#8217;s <i>The Scarlet Letter</i> is rife with ideas and statements on American culture and the taint of Puritanism on our collective souls.  That doesn&#8217;t mean he consciously put the stuff in there, it just means he felt that way, so it&#8217;s in his work.  </p>
<p>Sometimes I think we bring Theme to the novel, which is why two readers could read any given book and have differing opinions as to what the Theme of the work is.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: skzb</title>
		<link>http://dreamcafe.com/words/2008/03/23/on-message-theme-and-stuff-like-that/comment-page-1/#comment-1070</link>
		<dc:creator>skzb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 00:48:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dreamcafe.com/words/2008/03/23/on-message-theme-and-stuff-like-that/#comment-1070</guid>
		<description>Nicely put.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicely put.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: JP Timko</title>
		<link>http://dreamcafe.com/words/2008/03/23/on-message-theme-and-stuff-like-that/comment-page-1/#comment-1069</link>
		<dc:creator>JP Timko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 17:32:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dreamcafe.com/words/2008/03/23/on-message-theme-and-stuff-like-that/#comment-1069</guid>
		<description>Late to the game, but I&#039;d offer that theme can be choate or inchoate, and for most authors it is the latter. In my own writing, I use the word &quot;idea&quot; to express this, possibly meaning something similar to  what Alana Abbott means when she writes &quot;about.&quot;

When the author/characters are working through, chewing on an idea which is not resolved, theme remains inchoate. That&#039;s cool, I think, as in most cases the ideas chewed on are not often subject to resolution. Leaving them open invites the reader to continue to chew/think.

Yet sometimes the author has something to say, most often causing the story to fail.  I think this is easier to do well in a short story, a la Harlan Ellison.  Occasionally a gifted writer who is not a very good story-teller will nail this (1984).  When it all comes together, though, a good writer and story-teller who has something to say....

Jacqueline Carey, for example, works deftly with a singular idea on a very broad story. Take the concept expressed as &quot;Love as thou wilt,&quot; and the story of Phedre becomes a powerful statement as well. Hard to swallow for a veriety of reason (many of which have to do with the world-as-it-is), but I find it strongly compelling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Late to the game, but I&#8217;d offer that theme can be choate or inchoate, and for most authors it is the latter. In my own writing, I use the word &#8220;idea&#8221; to express this, possibly meaning something similar to  what Alana Abbott means when she writes &#8220;about.&#8221;</p>
<p>When the author/characters are working through, chewing on an idea which is not resolved, theme remains inchoate. That&#8217;s cool, I think, as in most cases the ideas chewed on are not often subject to resolution. Leaving them open invites the reader to continue to chew/think.</p>
<p>Yet sometimes the author has something to say, most often causing the story to fail.  I think this is easier to do well in a short story, a la Harlan Ellison.  Occasionally a gifted writer who is not a very good story-teller will nail this (1984).  When it all comes together, though, a good writer and story-teller who has something to say&#8230;.</p>
<p>Jacqueline Carey, for example, works deftly with a singular idea on a very broad story. Take the concept expressed as &#8220;Love as thou wilt,&#8221; and the story of Phedre becomes a powerful statement as well. Hard to swallow for a veriety of reason (many of which have to do with the world-as-it-is), but I find it strongly compelling.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Lauren Colleen</title>
		<link>http://dreamcafe.com/words/2008/03/23/on-message-theme-and-stuff-like-that/comment-page-1/#comment-1013</link>
		<dc:creator>Lauren Colleen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Mar 2008 19:11:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dreamcafe.com/words/2008/03/23/on-message-theme-and-stuff-like-that/#comment-1013</guid>
		<description>From the lit crit point of view themes are huge and I think THAT is what makes things literature and not just a good story. These themes enable those reading them to vicariously work out the problems along with the narrator/characters even writer. That&#039;s what makes them classics, to stand through the ages because these themes are universal and timeless. 

However from the writing point of view I think these themes develop themselves in gifted writers. Gifted writers I believe are people who care about the world, are as confused by it as the next guy and creative enough to put it in a context that anyone can identify with. (We&#039;ll see if I turn out to be one of said writers. Seems to me like Mr. Brust would qualify.) I don&#039;t think you can force a theme into a story. It has to come out on its own. 
I especially love the way Stephen Donaldson uses overarching ideas in the Mordant&#039;s Need duology. Rereading it recently really reminded me of what made those books  stick in my mind. It was the underlying themes that unknowingly touched me so deeply. That I believe is what makes good sf/f of literary value. Because it can achieve the same effect and almost in a subversive way, that people enjoy. I digress though. As I usually do. lol. Interesting topic. Sometimes now I feel like I have a split personality wanting to go into literary criticism and writing, but it gives me an interesting perspective on things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From the lit crit point of view themes are huge and I think THAT is what makes things literature and not just a good story. These themes enable those reading them to vicariously work out the problems along with the narrator/characters even writer. That&#8217;s what makes them classics, to stand through the ages because these themes are universal and timeless. </p>
<p>However from the writing point of view I think these themes develop themselves in gifted writers. Gifted writers I believe are people who care about the world, are as confused by it as the next guy and creative enough to put it in a context that anyone can identify with. (We&#8217;ll see if I turn out to be one of said writers. Seems to me like Mr. Brust would qualify.) I don&#8217;t think you can force a theme into a story. It has to come out on its own.<br />
I especially love the way Stephen Donaldson uses overarching ideas in the Mordant&#8217;s Need duology. Rereading it recently really reminded me of what made those books  stick in my mind. It was the underlying themes that unknowingly touched me so deeply. That I believe is what makes good sf/f of literary value. Because it can achieve the same effect and almost in a subversive way, that people enjoy. I digress though. As I usually do. lol. Interesting topic. Sometimes now I feel like I have a split personality wanting to go into literary criticism and writing, but it gives me an interesting perspective on things.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

